UK Intelligence Source: "We are in a full on war with Iran"

Um, ok. That story says that there are roadside bombs from Iran in Baghdad. Hell, that may be true. The Sun story is talking about Iranian choppers flying into Iraq, and calling it a full out war.

Not even close to the same thing.

What else you got?

I never said that.

I said a roadside bomb in Iraq, is not a chopper flying over the border, attacking the troops.

Just to clarify, Iran supplying the bombs is not an act of war, is this your position?

Just to clarify, the Soviets should have initiated unrestricted warfare in response to Reagan's act of war in arming the Afghan insurgency, is this your position? Because the situations are pretty much identical, you know.

Just to clarify, the Soviets should have initiated unrestricted warfare in response to Reagan's act of war in arming the Afghan insurgency, is this your position? Because the situations are pretty much identical, you know.

Insurgency? Insurgency?!

I thought they were freedom fighters? There is a big difference between the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and our presence in Iraq. They came to conquer, we came to liberate. We don't plan on staying, they did.

I thought they were freedom fighters? There is a big difference between the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and our presence in Iraq. They came to conquer, we came to liberate. We don't plan on staying, they did.

*Snarf*

I'm sorry... Bodhi1, you may owe me a new keyboard. We'll see how this one deals with coffee that's come out of my nose.

There is a big difference between the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and our presence in Iraq. They came to conquer, we came to liberate. We don't plan on staying, they did.

Hmmm... Really? There are still people who think we went into this war for altruistic reasons like liberation and that we intend to leave? Perhaps the troops will pull out eventually, sure, but corporate america has already conquered and has no intention of leaving Iraq. No one's building settlements or anything, sure, but Iraqi resources will be flowing via the US profit scheme for a long time...

If we were planning to leave, we would have gone in with a plan to do so and executed said plan. We didn't. The bulk of the evidence is that we intend to stay: after all we haven't even left liberated Europe, Korea, or Japan.

Whatever, it's Vietnam, with the Iranians playing the role of the North Vietnamese.

In September we can expect a speech from Bush talking about a "protective reaction strike" into Iran to flush out this "Ho Chi Minh Trail."

Been there. Done that. Got the tax bill. Let's pull the plug on this madness before Iran becomes another (more) failed state.

Sorry but the Soviets came into Afghanistan under the guise of "helping" and "liberating" the country. The US is to Iraq as the Soviets were to Afghanistan.... sad and very similar.....

We don't plan on staying?

I guess the FOBs that are being constructed for our military are just temporary? Strange how more money has been poured into building forward operating bases than reconstructing Iraq.

Hasn't it been right at four years?

What is the time frame to distinguish between temporary and permanent?

What is the time frame to distinguish between temporary and permanent?

Temporary is in this world Permanent is in the next.
Get it ?

until someone does something stupid

You mean other than sending in troops to kill US/allied soldiers or making explosives to kill US/allied soldiers?

I highly doubt the iranians would do anything to give the decider an excuse..
i find this very dubious.
Seriously if a word of this was really true, if we could prove a single claim of this, we would be bombing iranina right now.
We have already seeen that the pentagon gets arround the anti propaganda laws by publishing the lies oversees and just letting the american media pick it up on their own.
This is 100% BS
We are going to continually bait iran until they ACTUALLY do DO something, but until then, this is all lies.
This admin has proven that it will even lie when their is absolutly no reason to (aka the attorney fireings, wheather or not bush has every used the term stay the course) that is call a mental problem.

Now if someone is a known and documententated liar, would you actually put anyone in harms way based on their word??

You mean other than sending in troops to kill US/allied soldiers or making explosives to kill US/allied soldiers?

Yes, I mean other than that. It's called "deniability" ComSen. When US planes were shot at as they overflew Cuba in 1962, President Kennedy just pretended it didn't happen. To do otherwise would demand nuclear war with the Soviets.

The US can ignore a few bombs smuggled across the border. The soliders they will kill will be a tragic loss to the United States, but a paltry few compared to the thousands that would die in a general war with Iran.

International power-plays aren't a dick swinging contest. People who think that way tend to start very big very nasty and very serious wars that they're often unprepared to fight.

Thanks so much for this, Killfile. I was at an event several years ago after 9/11 and before the Iraq war at which a fellow who was obviously way into the neocon agenda was talking so very optimistically about "runnning the table in the Middle East." Wars of aggression are generally regrettable. You get the most dirt on your face and even should you win the people you defeated will make your peace very expensive.

I agree that Iran is trying to goad us into action. Their government is failing so they are looking for external bogies to keep their finger on their people - much as Bush tries to do with the U.S. The best thing that we can do is to keep our powder dry and to work with plentiful moderate elements in Iran to bring that regime down from within. This was the course that we were on prior to 2001. But because it pissed off Bush's Saudi oil buddies and it would have lead to a stable, moderate and probably democratic government in the Middle East we now have this ridiculous war. Who's to say if we can ever get things back on track, but here's hoping.

ComSen

The information on Iran's involvement essentially initiates from the same sources who supposedly gathered intel on Iraq. At what point do you and the others (those who believe the propaganda our government dishes out through the media) realize our interaction with our government is one smoke screen after another.

This is just one more frolic in the manipulation orgy we have been involved in since the conception of politics.

,,,,,God willing it's not true, but I've been saying that the Iranians may have good reason to think that they'll come out the better in a war with the United States an that they're likely to try to antagonize us

Come out the better?
Really--your serious?
You surprise me !
Explain how that works

I agree that Iran is trying to goad us into action. Their government is failing so they are looking for external bogies to keep their finger on their people

Yea, so they become suicidal to keep their power-
mmmmmmm-----ok
An what happens after the suicide -?
TO THEIR POWER-- THAT IS?

If they wanted a war they could cross the border in force any time an in any number they want -
Why be sneeking around -if that's what they want-
Like China in the Korean war

If Iranian choppers are flying over the border? Where the hell are our AWACS ? Why they are not shot down immediately?
We controll that airspace. Maybe Bush is afraid of an incident?

Jezz! He's praying for one!!

1 - Iran has got to know that if it appears to throw the first punch it can't count on allies. It needs those allies.

2 - Iran can definitely come out the better in the long run in a conflict with the US provided it can leverage economics against us and we're still tied up in Iraq.

3 - Helicopters can fly low enough to disappear into ground clutter.

OK
What allies?
Economics!!They're eating sh-t an rioting over gasoline an they can hurt us?
In the long run -----with their crummy infrastructure all blown to bits,all their bridges destroyed an their electric plants an roads destroyed.Airports bombed out, planes in pieces an military in shambles from constant air strikes an missile strikes.Water supplies destroyed etc etc. ad infinitum.
But wait, there's light at the end of this tunnel!!. mmmmm?
Iranians:" So tell us about that light."
"before the candles burn out"

Iran's allies -- potentially every Islamic nation on the planet and Venezuela. Incidentally, we buy huge amounts of oil from Venezuela.

Economics -- Iran's ties with Venezuela in conjunction with their ability to shut down the Straights of Hormunz give them the ability to cripple the US economy by sending the price of oil through the roof. If it happens in the winter, so much the better for them.

Also, don't mistake Iran for some two bit power. They're not going to roll over like the Iraqis did. Iran has both money and a fairly sophisticated air force. Can they take the F-22? Maybe not. But they can for damn sure hurt us. If US air superiority boils down to stealth, we're going to be in trouble.

Iran has both money and a fairly sophisticated air force.

Amen to the former, but I think you are falling for propaganda on the latter. They have some fairly sophisticated aircraft, but appear to be using Soviet era doctrine. That's a recipe for what happened to Saddam's "sophisticated" air force in the first Gulf War.

I think it far more likely that the Iranians would try to hide their planes for use after we are gone and resist using other means. There might be a few suicide shows for the domestic propaganda front, but their retaliation is far more likely to be things like blocking the Straits and saturating the Green Zone with suicide attacks, and maybe even a mob action. Not to mention distributing things like shoulder-launched SAMs to folks who will aim them at commercial jet liners and the like.

Iran has shown a willingness to play the terror card, and has spent decades developing puppets like Hizballah and Hamas (not to mention the current government of Syria) to use in such a campaign. I can also see them suddenly making things a lot easier for the Taliban in Afghanistan as well.

- Iran has got to know that if it appears to throw the first punch it can't count on allies. It needs those allies.

2 - Iran can definitely come out the better in the long run in a conflict with the US provided it can leverage economics against us and we're still tied up in Iraq.

3 - Helicopters can fly low enough to disappear into ground clutter.

0!#3.

Killfile
Please inform yourself of AWACS capability before giving misinformation at AWACS-spotter.nl.They are top down radar an have friend -foe ID system.They are not confused with ground clutter as you will see, if you bother to look it up.The can also detect low -flying craft, unlike ground based systems.[reason for being]l
Venezuela -an ally ???You mean they will become Bush's buddy if we have a war with Iran? Alliance with "EL DIABLO"? They sell fuel now, an their president thinks Bush is the devil,do you think everyone is stupid? They will whine, an accuse, an carry on just as they are now.
Iran's air force has F-15s or F16s [either or] but have not been able to get parts in years ,so they may be cannibalising parts to keep some flying.Completely outnumbered ,they would be little threat.

By the way, maybe those choppers were our own Spec Ops coming back from target picking.
Friend -Foe AWACS would miss that wouldn't it?
As with the AWACS, killfile ,think again.

compared to the U.S. Iran is a two bit power.

Don't kid yourself--or us-

gp: switch to decaf. You are well nigh incomprehensible when you get excited.

.[reason for being]l
Venezuela -an ally ???You mean they will become Bush's buddy if we have a war with Iran? Alliance with "EL DIABLO"? They sell fuel now, an their president thinks Bush is the devil,do you think everyone is stupid? They will whine, an accuse, an carry on just as they are now.

Seriously... what does that mean?

And you're correct on AWACS top down capability. I concede that.

Do we actually have AWACS over Iraq right now or are we using ground based radar? We're not exactly challenged for the airspace.

gp: switch to decaf. You are well nigh incomprehensible when you get excited

I don't like pc style coffee.
I want it straight or not at all.
Don't fool with Mother Nature-
lol

Do we actually have AWACS over Iraq right now or are we using ground based radar? We're not exactly challenged for the airspace If we didn't, don't you think that's really dumb.AWACS in a combat zone would need air cover. Since we own the airspace uncontested, it could fly at it's leisure.
Where the hell else would we use them if not at the Iran/Iraq border --We need them in Germany ?
If they are not in Iraq then we have the dumbest armed forces in the world with the biggest budget.
Now, either the U.S. government is suffering from dementia or they think we are.
Take your pick.

The straits are so full of American warships you couldn't sink a rubber ducky, without them knowing in advance. An as far as support from moslem countries--they don't even like Iran nor do they want them to become any kind of power in the gulf region-so why would they do more than empathise with their suffering? What did they do when we went into Iraq?
They were probably laughing themselves silly cause they knew what would happen,like we did ,but Bush ignored our own intelligence on it.

That was why it was called a Cold War.

Thanks! This is an interesting place and I hope I can make it even more so. Eventually.

You are out of luck Handshake! ;)

Ho ho! and welcome!

You wouldn't feel perfectly right hating Cheney? Now I wouldn't want to live THAT way.

Iran has more justification to intervene in Iraq than the U.S. has

Like Germany in Austria and Poland (and quite a few other countries)? Like the Soviet Union in Czechoslovakia?

Like the United States in Mexico?

An the US with the Cubans an Granada an Hati an Panama---oooooohhhh winded!